2nd touch on the 260

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csw900
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2nd touch on the 260

Post by csw900 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:56 am

Hi Jim and others

From various comments I have read on this forum it appeared that second touch does not work on the Miditzer 260.

However I have just given it a quick test with my CME UF7 keyboard and as far as I can tell channel 2nd touch is working perfectly. What is the problem? Why so many negative comments which have not been refuted?

csw900

PS The next day -- further investigation indicates that the problem may exist only when you record second touch. It records on the same midi channel as the first touch and, as far as I have investigated, this does not play back correctly.

I have attached a recording of a few notes -- first with normal touch and then after second touch is activated. The selected stops were not recorded. If you look at this file with a midi editor you can see everything is on one channel.

I would be interested to get comments from others who have tried 2t on the 260.

csw900
test260great2t2.mid
test260great2t.mid
test260acc2t.mid
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Re: 2nd touch on the 260

Post by rmac » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:55 pm

Your examples do not make any sense to me. I expected to see channel 1 on the great and channel 11 for the great second touch. Or, channel 2 for the accompaniment and channel 12 for the accompaniment second touch. I assume you did not explore channel 3 or 13 for the pedal and pedal second touch. Written in MIDI produces all stops combined without the second touch sounding separate. I think the problem is bigger than we think.

Bob The Virtual Organist.

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Re: 2nd touch on the 260

Post by csw900 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:48 am

Hi rmac

Many thanks for your interest -- you are probably right the problem(s) may be bigger than I thought. I too expected to see other channels in the recording. I did not test pedal. Also I can only test "channel 2t" as this is all my keyboard supports.

However the facts remain, my investigation indicates that 2nd touch DOES play on the organ and it sounds correct when appropriate stops are opened. (Can you confirm this?)

Thus my conclusion is that a major problem lies in the midi recorder. I have not yet tested the midi player.

Where did you get the information that the second touch midi channels recorded are
great = 11
acc = 12
pedal = 13

I cannot find this anywhere.

I see no technical reason why second touch has to be recorded on a different channel to the first touch. This is what the 260 is doing, recording it on the same channel. I have made another recording with the stops included so others can test my results. When this file was recording the second touch played and sounded correct. However on replay, even though the second touch stops get opened and the second touch is clearly on the recording the second touch plays but does not use the second touch stops. (i.e. the second touch plays as first touch).
test260great2twithstops.mid
Thus in my opinion there is a problem in the midi player.

A little later I have used rmac's information and edited the second touch in my recording just above into channel 11 and tested again to see if it plays correctly. The answer is no.
test260great2tch11withstops.mid
Thus my conclusion now is that 2t does play and sound correct when the organ is played from a keyboard, but do not waste your time trying to record it because neither the midi recorder or player work correctly.

csw900
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Re: 2nd touch on the 260

Post by rmac » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:45 pm

I'm surprised you did not know where the information for the second touch channels are. Try clicking on the M in the upmost left corner of the 260 console display. This should open to a whole bunch of choices including Miditzer settings. Try clicking on the settings and have fun. It should open to the input section showing what channels are used for which keyboards. On the right you will find the second touch channels. You might have to right click on some to change what is there (BE CAREFUL, you can always change back). The channels are the same for all Miditzer organs, except the 160.

I don't use the recorder at all. I write everything in MIDI on Cakewalks Sonar X3 usually from Piano music in my collection. It takes a lot of time, but I like the results.

I’m trying to see how the second touch does/doesn’t work on the 260SP. Should I find out I’ll let you know (don’t hold your breath). I did find out that the Great or Accompaniment SOLO PIZZ stops are couplers, not second touch stops as the location might imply.

Bob

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Re: 2nd touch on the 260

Post by Jim Henry » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:55 pm

rmac wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:45 pm
I did find out that the Great or Accompaniment SOLO PIZZ stops are couplers, not second touch stops as the location might imply.

Bob
Which is how it is both in function and in location on real Wurlitzers. Leaving things like that for you to discover, pretty much the way you would if you were sitting at a real Wurlitzer, is one of the intents of the Miditzer. Hope you had fun figuring it out.
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Re: 2nd touch on the 260

Post by csw900 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:34 am

I am not surprised that SOLO GREAT and SOLO PIZZ are couplers, that is why they are painted black, as are all couplers. I have not been using them in my tests so they are not an issue.

I did know there was some information in the Miditzer Settings where you say but did not know for sure that the last column on the right defined the second touch midi channel for RECORDING. My copy of the program has channels 1,2 and 3 reading from top to bottom. These values are necessary in order to make 2t work when playing the organ. It is pretty clear to me that the person who wrote the 260 software did not know in sufficient detail how midi 2t works and never tested it properly with a 2t keyboard.

Thus the great 2t channel has to be set to 1 for playing the organ and 11 for recording -- an impossible situation if you want to record your playing!!!

There may be other problems yet to be discovered but this one is pretty final. I wonder if there is a workaround. Where does the miditzer store this data -- I have had a good look in all the likely places and have not found it. I do know that if you uninstall the 260 and then clean out and delete every reference to miditzer 260 you can find on the PC this data will not have been deleted.

I plan to check out the 216 next to see whether it has the same problem.

A little later: Yes the 216 V0.886 has exactly the same problem -- this explains why there are no midi files for the 216 which have manually played 2t -- they are all edited in with a midi editor.

csw900

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Re: 2nd touch on the 260

Post by Jim Henry » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:06 am

csw900 wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:34 am
It is pretty clear to me that the person who wrote the 260 software did not know in sufficient detail how midi 2t works and never tested it properly with a 2t keyboard.
Let's be careful about what is "pretty clear" to you because one of the people who wrote the 260 software is me. I can assure you that second touch input was extensively tested. I acquired a keyboard that has both MIDI Channel Aftertouch and Polyphonic Aftertouch just so I could thoroughly test second touch. I think I know as much about both real second touch and MIDI aftertouch as any one person on the planet.
csw900 wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:34 am
I plan to check out the 216 next to see whether it has the same problem.
All the Miditzer Styles use the same software. There are some sections that apply only to specific styles. But if two styles share a feature, they will almost certainly behave the same.

The Miditzer's recorder does not respond to any settings. The idea was that all recordings would be done with the default settings and would play back using the default settings so that Miditzer recordings could be shared without concerns about how the Miditzer was configured at either end.

The Input Settings tell the Miditzer what to look for in the input MIDI data. There are several possibilities for what will be recognized as second touch input because I knew that people would have a variety of keyboards that provided something that could be used to activate second touch in various ways. The default MIDI Note input on a separate channel would be used if you had a real second touch keyboard that closes a second set of contacts when second touch is activated. That may be a holdover from the earliest days of the Miditzer when I may not have had support for MIDI aftertouch. From your post, it seems like you have found how to configure the input settings to control second touch with your keyboard.

So I think whatever issues you are observing exist in how second touch is recorded and/or played back. rmac brought that to my attention some time ago. The problem is that the Miditzer software needs to be updated and the recorder in particular needs a major rewrite (for reasons that have nothing to do with any observable problem) and the person working on that seems to have "stalled out" on the project. I honestly don't know what the future holds for the Miditzer. But until such time as work is being done on the recorder, nothing is going to change about how second touch is being recorded and played back. Sorry.
Jim Henry

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Re: 2nd touch on the 260

Post by csw900 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:07 am

Thanks for your response Jim, I was probably a bit harsh on the writer(s) of miditzer, things have changed since the old days when midi was relatively new and all manufacturers were trying to gain the upper hand by making up their own "standards".

However I did not have to do anything "magic" or clever to get miditzer responding correctly to 2t from my keyboard. There is nothing to do on the keyboard except press the "Aftertouch" button -- this setting will be remembered thereon.

As for setting up the miditzer there is nothing to do except set the 2t channel to be the same as the midi note channel (the extreme right channel setting on the menu, which from what you say may or may not be the RECORDING channel). I think that even you have some doubts about exactly what this channel setting does -- it certainly affects the midi recorder, player and 2t input and has no single setting where everything works as it should.

Having fixed midi channels for midi recording and playback is an excellent idea, as it makes midi files compatible over different systems. However without further tests I am not sure how fixed they are -- it seems to me they are controlled by the Settings/Input menu(s). However I suspect very few users will change any of these settings.

Its a pity there is nobody currently updating the miditzer software. If you have it and can send me a copy (in confidence) I will have a look and see whether I can help.

csw900

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Re: 2nd touch on the 260

Post by Jim Henry » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:19 am

The Miditzer is largely a MIDI translator. On the input side it takes mouse input, computer keyboard input, live MIDI input with the input settings, and the MIDI player based on the default settings and digests all that to control the virtual console. Mostly you can see what all the inputs are doing in the display of the virtual console. At that point, what input is causing something to happen is forgotten. Then the virtual console generates MIDI output using the output settings to simulate what sounds the actions of the virtual console should be making. The MIDI recorder writes a MIDI file based on the default settings to duplicate what the virtual console is doing.

I am absolutely sure that none of the input settings affect what is recorded. I am also absolutely sure that the recorder records 2T as a separate channel of MIDI note events.

I am traveling this week so I will be largely off-line for awhile. I am not ignoring you!
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Re: 2nd touch on the 260

Post by rmac » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:28 pm

The following will demonstrate the same piece played on the 216 and 260. I chose a piece I did a long time ago for its keeping the same registration thorough out. The only difference is the lack of an octave 4’ in the pedal of the 260. Stops were translated from the 216 to the 260. The music is the same.

Granch.mid is the original written entirely in MIDI for the 216. Granch260.mid was done by copying the 216 MIDI, changing the stops to 260 and adding the chimes to the second touch.

Listen to both. It might help if you add the second touch chimes to granch.mid to compare. Another thing to do is to take out the accompaniment stops on the 260 leaving just the second touch.

Note the first touch and second touch are played on the 260 in both cases. Something must be grabbing both channels all the time for both first and second touch.
granch.mid

granch260.mid
Bob The Virtual Organist
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